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Elbow Gender

10/20/2013

13 Comments

 
There will be more on Mary Cohen’s books next month, but I’ve been thinking about this issue for some recent lectures and couldn’t wait to write about it any longer. Did you know that there’s a difference between male elbows and female elbows? Was that a gasp I heard? This was first brought to my attention by the wonderful Jonathan Reynolds, a Minneapolis physical therapist who has a great arts medicine practice. He just happened to mention this casually in conversation with another violinist and I one day. We both said, “huh?” and gaped at him. He kindly replied, “Yeah, women’s arms angle outward from the elbow, and men’s are straight. Our stunned reply to that was “WHAT???” along with jumping up and down a couple of times. This just seemed immensely important in terms of holding the violin, and I couldn’t believe I'd never seen anything about it in pedagogical literature. What follows below are my conclusions, based on a lot of thought, harassing my students to let me examine and photograph their elbows, and no rigorous scientific testing whatsoever.

The angle in question is called the “carrying angle” and is seen when the arm is extended straight by the side (it’s easier to see if your palm is facing forward). The website,  http://www.healthline.com/human-body-maps/elbow , provides the following information. “The resting angle of the elbow prevents the arms from hitting the sides of your body as you walk. This is known as the “carrying angle.” Women typically have smaller shoulders and wider hips than men, and this can cause variations between carrying angles in men and women.” The greater carrying angle in women develops during puberty. There have been quite a few studies done (you can google it), and the difference in carrying angle is now seen by many as a secondary sex characteristic (which could be used as a means to differentiate male and female skeletons).  Here are two examples from my studio, male on the left and female on the right:
So what does this mean for violin and viola players? For holding the instrument, the implications are quite dramatic. When a person (let’s say a male) folds up his forearm to bring the hand towards the body, the elbow angle naturally allows the forearm to be directly in line with the upper arm:
However, when a person with a greater carrying angle (let’s say a female) does this, the natural motion of the arm is to bring the hand towards the chest.    
The only way for females with carrying angles such as these to attain the same position as the males shown above is to rotate the arm/elbow to the right (as you would to play higher on the G string). It seems therefore that many females would be better served to hold their instruments more in front, rather than out to the side, so as not to argue with the natural angle of their arms when bent into playing position. The more an arm is pulled under the violin or viola, the more susceptible it becomes to injury, whether by straining tendons or by putting undue stress on the ulnar nerve where it runs in the bony ridge of the medial epicondyle. Most shoulder rests have been designed with a man’s body in mind, with the possible exceptions of the Wolf Forte Secondo, or the old Menuhin pads. The newer Everest, a wonderful shoulder pad, was designed by making a computer model of the shoulder. It definitely angles the violin out towards the side when its curves and the shoulders’ curves are lined up. I often find it to be a great choice for my tall college guys, but rarely for the young ladies. How much would you like to bet it was a male shoulder that was the model for the Everest? I wonder if one modeled on female shoulders would be different? Sure seems like an area ripe for exploration.

So that is my brief and unscientific exploration of the topic to date. I’m still pondering the effects carrying angle might have on the bow arm. Seems like it might make for more natural pronation in females, but I need to get out the construction paper and experiment (the only way I figured out this much). In the both holding the violin and in bowing, elbow carrying angle might be a factor contributing to the fact that more females suffer playing-related injuries than men. Any thoughts?

13 Comments
Jami Kleinert link
4/2/2015 07:33:02 am

I know this is a bit of an older post, so I'm curious as to whether or not you've found additional information / discoveries on this topic since it was originally posted.

My setup has a center-mount chin rest and I use a Mach One maple shoulder rest, with the shoulder rest in what others have described as an 'extreme' position (I don't have my violin with me today or I'd try to describe it better). Once I adopted this setup, bowing became MUCH easier to do the way how my college teacher asked me to do. I would think that the natural pronation of the bow hand wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but could it possibly also lead to shoulder issues by requiring the shoulder to get more involved at either end of the whole bow stroke? It might be interesting to try to get some 3D modelling and motion capture and analyze similar to how sports medicine analyzes baseball or football player motions. :)

I'd love to hear about any updates to this. I know I'll be looking for differences in carrying angle in my high school and some older middle school students going forward.

Reply
Cora Cooper link
4/6/2015 01:04:36 pm

Hi Jami,

I am still thinking about all this but haven't done that much about it yet. I'm curious-- when you say your violin position is extreme, do you mean extremely towards the center of your body, or out to the left? Do you have any issues on the left side? And what aspects of bowing became easier based on your more extreme posture? I'd love to hear more about your experience!

Reply
ashok
10/1/2015 03:28:39 am

my son arms elbow is 18 degree. how it be reduce below 15 degree

Reply
Nicolas
7/24/2019 09:43:28 pm

get him outta here :)

Reply
Cheryl J Hite
9/3/2016 07:30:38 pm

The reason God made the bent arm angle different for men and women is for women to be able to hold and carry an infant for long periods of time without getting tired-men hold a newborn for about 2 seconds and want to give it back to Mommy! This is true-as any mom could atest-we don't get arm fatique from this natural occurance. one of many differences in the sexes-bodies and how the female body is designed to have children.

Reply
CBeare
5/3/2018 02:23:03 pm

This has been really interesting. Have you taken it further? It would make an interesting study. I was directed here in my search as I've been learning archery and realised that I keep getting stung by the bow whilst the males are able to keep a straight clean line. An instructor mentioned a difference in the male to female physiology and so to google I went. Thanks for this piece.

Reply
Charles S Dougherty, Ph.D.
12/1/2018 05:47:43 pm

I've heard, but haven't observed, women and men are different in the "Adams Apple" anatomy. How are they different?

Reply
Cora Cooper
12/1/2018 11:08:41 pm

Hi Charles! I'm not really the one to ask-- I'm just a violinist, no real anatomy or physiology training. A pt mentioned the carrying angle difference to me, and here I just extrapolate what it might mean for violinists. However, I would say that men's adam's apples are more pronounced than those of women, but I haven't a clue why!

Reply
Robyn
8/2/2019 09:19:09 am

You say women should hold the violin more to the front to make up for their arm angle - actually it's the opposite. The violin for women shoulc be held more to the side to release pressure on the left shoulder and wrist. Unfortuntely that means further for the bow arm to reach. Violin posture is all about compromise...

Reply
Cora
8/2/2019 01:16:36 pm

Hello, Robyn! I’m not trying to say anyone “should” do anything; just pointing out a factor in violin position that deserves exploration. Thank you for your thoughts.

Reply
Ariana link
1/14/2021 10:15:55 am

Loved reaading this thank you

Reply
JL
2/8/2021 02:50:25 pm

The science behind varying carrying angles in males and females is true. There is a big caveat here, though. I hate to say it, because these students are presumably young. However, both your female students are obese, whereas your male students are overweight and normal weight. That is the reason they cannot touch their own shoulders---there is too much tissue impeding their forearm flexion. Normal-weight females can touch their own shoulders just fine. Obese males will also not be able to touch their own shoulders.

Reply
Mary
2/26/2021 11:00:47 pm

I av a male elbow and am not cool with it coz I can’t wear sleeves. What could be the solution to get it curved to that of females?

Reply



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